Kowboy
Veteran Member
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Posts: 2014
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| 01 Oct 2008 06:48 PM |
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Al:
So much of me wants to agree with you, but as I've said before, I'm torn.
If guys like Russ and Jon and ISSFA President Todd Werstler (he and I have banged heads) can't put this thing back on the tracks, it can't be done.
It may be the optomist in me or just nievete, but I have an obligation to give it one more chance.
If it blows up in my face, it won't be the first time, it won't be the last, but I will have done everything I can to help.
Joe |
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| ...One ought to choose likely impossibilities in preference to unconvincing possibilities.- Aristotle |
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al
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| 01 Oct 2008 07:05 PM |
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Joe,
You've been around a lot longer, so I'll respect your judgement here, but what is left to give one more chance?
Is it more about a "countertop fabricator association" or is it about a solid surface fabricator association?
If the former, I just don't see how a board of directors dominated by granite shops that has voted to include granite along with quartz has left anything useful for the solid surface industry?
Voting to include competing materials isn't putting things back together, it is abandoning the solid surface community.
I just don't see how anyone can trust a group that has betrayed their original pupose? |
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| "if it is so safe, why aren't they supporting the testing?" |
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Jon Olson
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| 02 Oct 2008 05:06 AM |
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Hello Al . First I have the up-most respect for Andy. If he told me to stop posting about ISSFA it would be done in a flash. Al I have one agenda to help SS grow. Now I know what your going to say. Well if ISSFA didn't represent SS how can they represent all surfaces? But they have to do something. If ISSFA survives it wont be because they embraced all surfaces. It will be because they (The BOD) saw the light and brought in Russ for advice.
Just like Joe said with Russ there I have to see what happens that's what I,am doing as well.
What about Todd? Since he has been the pres three big things have happen during his term to help fabrciaotrs.
1-Town hall meetings
2-AWI standards
3-Architectural specs.
You have made some perditions on what you think is happing Not sure if your correct on any of them. For example there going to charge more to members? Where did you hear that?
also
How did ISSFA show up and beg for members? I don't see any new faces hear. Besides using the Fab Net to help a cause. Aren't you calling the kettle black there? (Radon)
Al where are all these exclusive SS shops. Sterling is one of them but we are very few. Still the trend is towards these emerging surfaces. We all need to learn about them why not let an association do the research for us?
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| Operations/Production Manager
Award Winning Solid Surface Fabricators
Columnist-Countertops & Architectural Surfaces Magazine
2007 ISFA Fabricator of the Year
978-422-3321 ex 237
www.facebook.com/Sterling Surfaces
www.twitter.com/sterlingsurface
www.youtube.com/sterlingsurfaces
Lets put value back into Countertops
Solid Surface the only surface with unlimited design potential |
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Mory Ludwick
Basic Member
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Posts: 495
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| 02 Oct 2008 05:23 AM |
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Jon,
I’ve had to do a lot of reading to catch up on a few things. I stated in a previous post that I would not be renewing my membership. Now that I know Russ Lee and I have 100% confidence in Todd as President, I will rejoin ISSFA. It is good to see that there are some strong and stubborn people going to make this organization finally right. Anytime you put Russ Lee and a few other people in the ring, we will all come out winners. That includes you too. I do believe in them embracing all of the surfaces. Our shop does granite and engineered stone, as well as solid surface, and they all three fit together just fine. One product helps the other sell. Again, I look forward to getting re-involved with ISSFA on the positive side.
Mory
PS I still believe the magazine was a little too high end, but it still looked good. |
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| Where Service is on the Surface |
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Norm Walters
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| 02 Oct 2008 02:48 PM |
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Al, you have seen alot of emotion from past and present members of ISSFA. When these folks are complaining about the association it is because they have devoted countless hours of their time, and also their membership dues, in an attempt to improve the association, and in the end they were let down. These folks have good reason to express their disapproval with ISSFA.
I have a hard time wrapping my head around the reason you are so passionate about everything that is wrong about ISSFA, even though you are not a member, and have never been a member??
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www.normwaltersconstruction.com |
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Kowboy
Veteran Member
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| 02 Oct 2008 03:50 PM |
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Posted By politefab on 10/02/2008 5:14 PM
for some people all they know how to do is complain and if there is nothing to complain about they find or make something up to complain about. at some point every one just stops listening to those people Eli: I appreciate what you say, but I am not so quick to dismiss Al's claims. Al's questions are difficult but perfectly ligitimate. ISSFA has a poor track record and an obligation to answer them. Joe |
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| ...One ought to choose likely impossibilities in preference to unconvincing possibilities.- Aristotle |
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al
Veteran Member
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| 02 Oct 2008 05:31 PM |
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Posted By Jon Olson on 10/02/2008 7:06 AM
Hello Al . First I have the up-most respect for Andy. If he told me to stop posting about ISSFA it would be done in a flash. Al I have one agenda to help SS grow. And I support your agenda. Now I know what your going to say. Well if ISSFA didn't represent SS how can they represent all surfaces? But they have to do something. If ISSFA survives it wont be because they embraced all surfaces. It will be because they (The BOD) saw the light and brought in Russ for advice. Be that the situation, why bring in granite at all?
Just like Joe said with Russ there I have to see what happens that's what I,am doing as well.
What about Todd? Since he has been the pres three big things have happen during his term to help fabrciaotrs. Excellent, so does he want to be the one at the helm when Issfa abandons what little reprsentation that solid surface had?
1-Town hall meetings
2-AWI standards
3-Architectural specs.
You have made some perditions on what you think is happing Not sure if your correct on any of them. For example there going to charge more to members? Where did you hear that? You are confused, my point is that all of us have recieved tons of Issfa solicications for this and that, seminars, training info, all for a big fat fee. My point was if this info was put together with Issfa member's money, why are they being charged if they want to see it?
also
How did ISSFA show up and beg for members? I don't see any new faces hear. Besides using the Fab Net to help a cause. Aren't you calling the kettle black there? (Radon) Again you miss the point, which is that Issfa has been abandoned even on their own BB. If they want to speak to their members, they have to come to Fabnet.
Al where are all these exclusive SS shops. Sterling is one of them but we are very few. Still the trend is towards these emerging surfaces. We all need to learn about them why not let an association do the research for us? Jon, it is really simple and brought home by the Radon/radiation/granite countertop issue.
First off, had solid surface had an effective trade association 14 years ago, it is very likely that the granite boom would have never happened, nor would we have this flood of untested material causing all the problems. A bit of resistence and perserverance would have kept the stone industry honest.
Secondly, now that the issues have been brought forward and plenty of proof provided, issfa still does nothing even though it does not represent granite. At the very least, Issfa should have made a public statement early on that the issue must be studied thoroughly and the sale of hot granite stopped immediately.
Thirdly, both solid surface and quartz companies would have benefited from issfa's participation. Even the shops that sell granite would have benefited from lessening their liability and the health of their workers.
And why was issfa missing in action? Because they wanted to represent granite. If anyone thinks that including quartz was anything more than the camel getting his nose under the tent, they are deluded.
Issfa lost members when they brought in representation of quartz.
Issfa will lose even more members when they bring in other materials.
And if Issfa was competently lead, it wouldn't have hemoraged members, and it wouldn't be in it's current state. As it is, to trust issfa to keep it's word on anything is ridiculous. If you say there are some good guys on the board, I won't doubt you, but face it, the board is ran by the granite industry. They infiltrated the organization, and now they intend to finish the job.
The stone industry will not flock to Issfa even if Issfa completes the traitorous turn about. The stone industry has plenty of organizations already and have no reason to support issfa save finishing off any representation of solid surface.
It is soooo simple. A trade association can represent one product at a time. Anything else is a conflict of interest.
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| "if it is so safe, why aren't they supporting the testing?" |
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al
Veteran Member
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| 02 Oct 2008 05:55 PM |
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Posted By politefab on 10/02/2008 7:34 PM
i was just making a general statement i know plenty of people who just complain about every thing. i think that every thing i have read has valid points. So, we are to believe that you were speaking generally? Usually one does not specifically mention anothers name if they aren't directing the comment toward them. Eli, the people on Fabnet are so very different than what you are used to. Here respect is earned, grudgingly in some cases, but BS doesn't rule like it does on your home forum. (edited by moderator, second warning) |
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| "if it is so safe, why aren't they supporting the testing?" |
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Eli Polite
Basic Member
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Posts: 352
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| 02 Oct 2008 07:17 PM |
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hold your horses there i don't need to prove my self to you or any one else on a forum to tell you the truth i don't rely care what you think of me. at this point my work speaks LOUD AND CLEAR for me you have never seen it in person and know nothing about it. if you are so pro solid surface than stick to it i love solid surface and i have an extensive back ground in it more so than stone. but as i have said in the past i stayed away from the solid surface crowd because its like being in a pack of old ladies nothing but a bunch of bickering and complaining so yes the comment was in general. and yes you guys are diffrent instead of being open minded and willing to adapt and progress with the counter top industry in general. stone,engineered stone, recycled products, wood, what ever it may be in some cases you get into one product and just want to stay with it because thats all you know. well good luck with that. issfa has not been a great organization for some time now solid surface hit its stride and growth will be minimal every year new and better products will come on the market. it is your decision to adapt and grow or stay and get left behind. the cell phones you talk on every day hold a greater risk to your health than a granite top ever will. as well as all the soda you drink fast food ultra violet light air pollution and the fumes you inhale every day fabricating solid-surface out of all the risks you have in your home and in your every day life just stepping out of your home is a 1,000,000 times greater risk to your health than sitting on your granite counter top for the next 60 years granite gets atacked because it is a threat to your industry and way of life. issfa has to change the cutting edge is not solid surface its not even stone any mor in a few more years there will be interactive countertops. they are alllready in the works what i am saying is simple quit winning about things you will never change stone was one of the first building materials man ever touched. it will most likely be here after all humans are dead and gone. if you want to save some one than go fight agenst the people that are carving there homes out of mountains and basically living in man made caves . issfa will ether change and adapt new materials and new products or shrink to nothing. just because some one does not agree with your opinion does not mean that they are bad people or un skilled my solid surface can match or surpass what i have seen here in the last year or so. i have been doing it for 15 years im not a beginner and im not a stoner im a COUNTER TOP FABRICATOR all materials. i have as much respect for solid surface as do for many other materials.
a friend of mine told me if you want to make quick friends just agree with everything they say. you will make friends quick BUT if you want to earn respect and friends for life have your own opinion and stick to it. im not closed minded i dont need to sneak around i speak my mind and dont get pissed off if some ones opinion does not match mine. i do excellent work and let that speak for me. catch up adapt or get left behind simple |
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Zary South
New Member
Private Messenger:
Posts: 9
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| 02 Oct 2008 07:24 PM |
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Mory!
I'm totally calling your hand on your public agreement to re-join ISSFA! 
Anyone else out there want to look at what Russ is discussing through the wise eyes of Mory? I like your style, man... |
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Zary South
Check my bio for more info
"To err is human; to forgive, divine." |
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Eli Polite
Basic Member
Private Messenger:
Posts: 352
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| 02 Oct 2008 07:59 PM |
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(edited by moderator, first warning) |
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Andy Graves
Senior Member
Private Messenger:
Posts: 7116
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| 02 Oct 2008 11:06 PM |
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Posted By Mory Ludwick on 09/30/2008 9:46 PM
Andy, the website looks great. Keep up the good work.
Mory
Thanks, I appreciate it. |
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FabNet Administrator
andy@thefabricatornetwork.com
Countertop Company - www.OliveMill.com |
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Lenny E
Veteran Member
Private Messenger:
Posts: 1929
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| 03 Oct 2008 10:25 AM |
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Russ,
Congratulations on your new position. My feeling is you will truly be an asset to ISSFA and those in the surfacing community.
That AWI spec is a huge accomplishment. Kudos. One of the many reasons Corian is so successful is that a plethora of specs are written for Corian. Its a barrier to other brands and materials, and takes quite a bit of work to substitute another material into that spec. Having a solid surface spec in AWI- well Thats money in the bank for Solid Surface companys and fabnetters!
The work involved in this type of thing is arduous, and involves many man-years of effort, meetings, writing and revising, canvassing, addressing comments etc.
Job well done! Russ, having an industry legend like you involved with ISSFA can only mean more good things are forthcoming.
All the Best,
Lenny |
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Russ Lee
Basic Member
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Posts: 153
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| 03 Oct 2008 11:39 AM |
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Lenny,
You're a stalwart in the industry and pretty dang smart too. It's great to have you back in country.
BTW your comments about the AWI spec are greatly appreciated. The credit goes to the ISSFA committee that made it happen. I just get to talk about it.
Russ
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Wags
Veteran Member
Private Messenger:
Posts: 1631
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| 03 Oct 2008 10:19 PM |
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Good Lord, between Als novels and Politefab not using paragraphs, does anyone read that dribble? Geesh. Go outside, its a wonderful time of year, get off the computer and live REAL life for a change. Lenny, you in the US for an extended stay or ? |
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Jon Olson
Veteran Member
Private Messenger:
Posts: 2806
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| 04 Oct 2008 04:57 AM |
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Wags you are correct.. This time of the year is assume. I love the fall!!! I'am going to be outside all day today. yard work, than apple picking than hiking . Yea baby.
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| Operations/Production Manager
Award Winning Solid Surface Fabricators
Columnist-Countertops & Architectural Surfaces Magazine
2007 ISFA Fabricator of the Year
978-422-3321 ex 237
www.facebook.com/Sterling Surfaces
www.twitter.com/sterlingsurface
www.youtube.com/sterlingsurfaces
Lets put value back into Countertops
Solid Surface the only surface with unlimited design potential |
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Karl Crooks
Advanced Member
Private Messenger:
Posts: 906
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| 04 Oct 2008 07:55 AM |
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Posted By Wags on 10/04/2008 12:19 AM
Good Lord, between Als novels and Politefab not using paragraphs, does anyone read that dribble? Geesh. Go outside, its a wonderful time of year, get off the computer and live REAL life for a change. Lenny, you in the US for an extended stay or ? Wags you got that right, after I finish up my coffee, I'm headed to the beach. There's a surf contest that my wife and I will enjoy watching, sun shine, ocean air, and some thing to wash it all down with.  |
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| RESTORE ~ RENEW ~ REJOICE !
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Reuben Hoff III
Advanced Member
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Posts: 823
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| 04 Oct 2008 10:32 AM |
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Ah, yes it was a wonderful morning. We laoded up some of our fifth grade boys to go play a area town in football this morning. It was a very cool brisk football type weather and was fun to coach the kids to yet another victory. However this afternnon and possibly tomorrows 5th and 6th grade game won't be so fun for my son. Second to last play took a side shot and has appeared to gotten a deep muscle bruise just above the hip. Tough to tell at this age how bad it really is, you know those bumps and bruises always seem worse than they are, but then again they might be that bad.
I degress though it is a great day to be out and away from all the stresses of the business world. |
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Andy Graves
Senior Member
Private Messenger:
Posts: 7116
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| 04 Oct 2008 11:08 AM |
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After careful consideration I have decided to take the following steps:
1. Remove all posts concerning the private email.
2. Ban Al for a second rules violation.
3. Move the thread back to "General Section"
This was not an easy decision and was not taken lightly. Essentially the decision was a culmination of talking with many FabNet members, reviewing the rules and reviewing past posts.
I also want to apologize to the person (you know who you are) for the post to remain on the FabNet for more than a day.
It is never easy to ban a FabNet member and I try to avoid it at all costs if possible. We just came to the conclusion that a change needed to take place.
Thanks to all the moderators for the efforts and clear judgement in the matter.
If you have any questions, please give me a call or email.
Andy
714-393-5282
andy@thefabricatornetwork.com
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FabNet Administrator
andy@thefabricatornetwork.com
Countertop Company - www.OliveMill.com |
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Norm Walters
Veteran Member
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Posts: 2418
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| 05 Oct 2008 07:40 AM |
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Ok, back to the jist of this thread. Upon hearing that ISSFA's TFT classes are being eliminated, it makes me wonder what the "new" plan is going to consist of.
Am I the only one that thought the training was one of their better attributes?
Russ, what kind of training programs does ISSFA have in mind? Not asking for definate plans, just the ideas.
Has anyone with experience in market research done a study to determine what multi-surface shops, vendors, and manu's need in an association, and what they would be willing to pay for?
Russ, you also mentioned that there won't be sponsors as in the present ISSFA, would the operating costs be coming exclusively from membership dues?
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www.normwaltersconstruction.com |
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