Norm,

Good point about the research to see if multi-purpose shops need an association. 

I have always assumed that associations started when a group with a shared interest or concern got together to promote something to to stop something that they opposed.  They usually grow from those roots.

I cannot think of anything one organization could do for the industry that would be helpful to all types of fabricators.  It seems to me that an organization that represents all materials could only benefit those that sell all materials.  Otherwise, part of a members dues would be spent promoting or supporting a competing product.

Is this new concept to support the countertop industry as a whole or all uses of the products, not just countertops? 

I just can't get a grasp on this concept.  Help me out.

Linda

It seems we need more information before a clear judgment can be made.  Sure a multi surface organization can work but what will the emphasis be for those that don't fabricate all materials?

I always thought the training was the heart of the association.  But, if nobody attends, then something has to change.

Yes, the ITEC will be closing. It performed a tremendous service to the industry by providing first quality training never before seen in the industry. It truly helped set the standard for fabrication. Bill did a phenomenal job building on the foundation Steve Bace created and taking it to a much higher level, eventually making the ITEC recognized by virtually all solid surface manufacturers as a certified trainer. In my opinion, Bill carried the flag for ISSFA when ISSFA didn't have a whole lot to talk about.

The landscape has changed, however. There is considerable less interest among ISSFA members to attend classes at the ITEC. Many of the enrollees today seem to come from less traditional sources and tend to drift away from ISSFA (and, apparently, the mainstream industry) within a year. ITEC has never been a source of revenue, but the trend in recent months shows it going further into the hole each month.

As ISSFA moves toward embracing multiple surfacing options, the methodology for training will move more to on-demand resources, as well as product-specific hands-on training by qualified persons in each product category -- again, on-demand and regionalized.

The resources formerly devoted to funding the ITEC can now be used to create a more comprehensive and lighter on the feet training program that offers a wider choice of subject matter, will address the needs of fabrication shops of all sizes and interests and will be easier to access. Of course, it will take some time to create the total educational curriculae, but we have a tremendous start with the library of training courses Bill and others have already created.

Andy has made the point in other posts that the Internet has changed a lot of the way information is now and will be delivered to fabricators in the future. He also makes a very good point that much of that information is free. ISSFA's educational program of the near future will provide needed services to fabricators while operating in the realities of an Internet-based culture. At the beginning of this thread I said I didn't want to make a lot of promises without some track record to back them up, but I think this is one area where it is important that folks understand the direction the association is taking.

Regarding funding, Norm, I will have to remain somewhat circumspect. Obviously, ISSFA is contemplating changing the way it does business on many fronts. How it generates revenue is one of those.

I tried to cover a lot of bases in this post without laying down a lot of words, but it's still a long post. I apologize. If you have specific questions I will attempt to address them.

Russ

here is the thing about the training 5 or 6 years ago you had to jump through hops to get certified for solid surface. you had to get certified by taking classes now all you rely have to do is say i have been fabricating for a few years and your good to go.

in a 35 mile radius of us there are something like 40 certified fabricators this why i have said and still say that solid surface is no longer an exclusive material. why would any one PAY to go to a class like that when they dont have to. you can go on the internet and for free get all of the information that you need. i have never had a problem with sharing my knowledge in solid surface for free. at expo i will be doing a total of four demonstration for free

Certification of fabricators is an areas ISSFA could of really helped the industry. For many years as a consumer, if you found the ISSFA sight, you couldn't access the Member list unless you were a member... duh.. If they could of promoted "Certified Fabricators" in magazines etc with a list that a consumer (or architect) could access, it may of helped the industry AND ISSFA. After making the suggestion the member list should be available to the public they finally made it available. I don't remember seeing anywhere in articles where it promoted ISSFA trained fabricators. Politefab, I have been in many many "certifited" shops where they were not following fabrication procedures. This is the responsibility of the local reps in my opinion, to make sure shops are following the correct procedures. Just because you can purchase material, doesn't mean its being fabricated correctly. And just because you took a good course, doesn't mean your continuing to fabricate correctly.

On another note, I took my own advice about getting off this computer. Las Vegas had there Bike Week this last week, ending today. Being were only 270 miles from Vegas, we got up early Sat morning and headed toward Vegas. Great ride, great show and a nice change of pace. As Harley Riders know, "Its the journey, not the destination" .. such is life.
Good short film http://www.harley-davidson.com/wcm/...cale=en_US

  Russ, when you refer to regionalized training are you referring to courses being given by shops in localized areas, which would be sponsored by ISSFA?

  Would it be something along the lines of the Quartz template and install classes in which a local shop holds the class for local members? If so I am curious as to how many shops embraced the idea of training their competition in respect to classes that have already been held.  Was it difficult to find shops that would do this?

Wags,

Good point about certification and promotion of the ISSFA fabricator. Both of these topics are at the top of the list for ISSFA. More information will be forthcoming.

Norm,

While it is certainly an option to use fabricator shops for training venues at the local level I'm not so sure that is a workable solution in the long run. It certainly makes sense in respect to a chapter meeting, where specific product and/or techniques are demonstrated, but I don't expect member shops will be set up to essentially train their competition as a matter of course.

ISSFA training could take several forms. Of course there will be formal training which could be accessed by any member in any location.

There might also be training based on member need from a geographic perspective. For example, several years ago my local chapter in Salt Lake wanted to learn more about the newly emerging quartz surfacing products. We invited reps from all the major brands to come in (they came from as far away as Texas) to educate us on what was a brand new concept to most of us. We had a chance to see the products, gain a perspective on their marketing positions and methods of doing business and make a direct personal connection with each company. We came away with a better appreciation and understanding of quartz surfacing before that product had gained any traction in the marketplace. I know of at least one company that took steps to become a fab/distributor of one product using the knowledge and contacts gained from that ISSFA session.

The central goal or mission of ISSFA is to help its members become more profitable. With a more flexible training environment tailored to individual need we can move quicker and more effectively to provide essential information and skills. Under ITEC, ISSFA provided absolutely top-notch training in a somewhat rigid format. It was like a big ship with a large turning radius. The new training will be more like a flotilla of speed boats that can be deployed quickly and will have the ability to change direction as needed.

Russ

I have one more point to make about the ISSFA meeting we held in SLC regarding quartz. The company that followed up on its quartz connection was, at the time, into solid surface in a big way. But the market was changing, they saw the need and the trend and reconfigured their business with an emphasis on hard surface fabrication. Eventually they phased out solid surface altogether.

Suddenly, ISSFA had almost no relevance because the fabricator's emphasis had changed. They still had the same interests, the same fabricator culture and the same love for the industry as previously, but they were changing with the times. ISSFA didn't change. You have guessed the end of the story. This company is no longer an ISSFA fabricator.

Ours is a fashion-driven industry. A fabricator is successful not because he rams a specific product or brand down the consumer's throat. Rather, he is successful because he is adept at ascertaining the wants and needs in the marketplace and responding to those wants and needs better than the competition.

By embracing all surfacing products, ISSFA is essentially saying, "We are open to anything that impacts the countertop fabricator. If your business is changing, we want to change with you and help you along the way to be profitable."

Does that mean ISSFA no longer would promote solid surface (assuming that was happening in the first place)? No. ISSFA would continue to pursue that effort. It does mean the association would work strenuously in the background to provide the skills, training and contacts you need to stay current and forward-looking in the marketplace as new products and ideas emerge.

Rather than remaining PRODUCT focused, ISSFA intends to become FABRICATOR focused. It's a small change in perspective that will have huge impact for the future.

when we started up a year and a half ago the only solid surface product we had any issues with was corian. we had a few people come and look at our set up but was told it was just more of a formality than anything. i did kind of help that i had been doing it for many years and already knew a lot of the people that we were dealing with.

russ is saying the same thing that i said in 2 previous posts in this thread. there is just to much on the market and more is added every year. i personally don't see any dramatic growth if any in the solid surface industry. if an organization can be formed that involves all the products i am sure that it would be successful. i just don't know if it would ever happen more because people in this industry are always at each others throats. i have always been an advocate for multi surface shops and have spent my career becoming fluent in as many products as i can.

  Todd is a good speaker, defintately makes a point. It will be interesting to see what this "new association" will offer, how it will be funded.

  It's interesting how it is being presented by Russ. By not saying how it will be funded, it changes the attitude of potential members from saying "what I am I getting for my dues" to "well maybe I won't have to pay dues so free is good right?"

  Or maybe the thought that there will be so many members that would join and pay dues, because of the fact that it is going to embrace all materials, that the dues will be low enough to entice membership.

  It sure seems that all of this would have been thought out before the announced change was made,  rather than the BOD flying without a compass.

  There may be a master plan, research that has been done, but the lack of transparency remains the same. For what reason I have no idea, is someone else going to steal the idea and start another association, I doubt it.

         

Well...I said this to the Bod at my who were sitting at my table...

I thought this was an oxy moron and probaly not the right time to announce Solid Surface as not moving to well...because directly after that speech......MARTIN fUNCK got up and showed pictures of his latest projects of SS....he was doing a building with Siding and escalator covers that were 5 feet tall...and very expensive...then you had Dwight grifform show his skills....then last but least Grahm of Sterling showing how all the designers and Architects are now specifying SS.....

I really dont know when a time would have been to bring it up...but as an introduction to my heroes of the industry...uh..how do you define "Bad Timing"

as far as them saying the industry is changing....well who changed it?...Im into all the materials too...its just that it seems we are following some sort of path we cant see or touch...I hope once we find it we can the be Leading instead of following what sells...I hope we can all learn how to sell what we make rather than quick learn to sell a slab of what sells in a quick and speedy fabrication course of 2 hours ....

Its gonna be an awesome movement whatever it is JOn...lets look at it this way...alot of people didnt want to be a part of ISSFa as it was...and now that there is some change some will want it to go back.............its gonna be wild, it gonna be good...and if it doesnt work out we can always go back to the way we useta be

we will just tell them to archive the literature for three years in case we hafta go back...what do we got to lose

I know whats gonna happen and I aint telling ...im even excited about bringing laminate into the mix...thats where i started from

I just know all materials are selling some just in units and faster thats all...

Norm,

I may have said this before . . . what ISSFA is doing isn't secret, it's just the pieces aren't put together yet. When they are, we'll be able to talk about them. It's one of those situations where having a master plan provides the vision, but the details still need working out.

Russ

Russ get the RIGHT PEOPLE on the buss, put them in the RIGHT SEATS; LET THEM take care of the details and it will all work out great !

Karl, Couldn't have said that better myself.

Something I would like to clarify has to do with who all these changes are meant to affect. I've heard some comments that ISSFA is trying to expand its focus to attract new members from other parts of the industry to help shore up losses in membership.

While that may be a by-product of the change in focus, the real motive is to become more relevant to the fabricators we already serve and have served in the past. Yes, we can provide training in solid surface and quartz and do a pretty good job of it. But our members are trying to compete in a fashion-driven industry, where knowledge of the latest products and techniques often translate directly to the bottom line.

ISSFA wants to become a central resource where countertop fabricators, product mfgs and vendors can come together to exchange ideas, see the latest trends and learn how to implement new methods and products into their businesses. By opening its arms to multiple products ISSFA hopes to break down barriers.

Mike Duggan used to say that a fabricator's competition is not the fabricator down the road or across town. His real competitor is that new car, that boat or new carpeting throughout the house. No one buys a premium surface countertop because they need to. They buy it because they want to. It's a discretionary purchase.

ISSFA wants to embrace all surfacing options to help fabricators move away from product-specific knock down/drag out wars, to focus on the real competition -- those products and services that will take the 4 or 5 grand that should have gone into a countertop that ends up sitting in the driveway or in a home theater.

ISSFA intends to aggressively promote each of these product categories the best way it knows how. That's one of the reasons I am involved with the effort.

  Russ, although my post may seemed to have come off negative, that wasn't my intention. I volunteered many hours of my time for ISSFA when I was a member. I suppose I am more curious than anything else, as to the new plan. The comment about transparency, well anyone that ever had anything to do with ISSFA knows that was an issue in the past,  and I hope along with the "changes" it stays in the past.

I would sure like to know how ISSFA  intends to do this  when they could'nt even do what they supposed to have done with solid surface.




Darren